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lancellot
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RE: Why Freedom of speech is so important.
Scarbrems, It seems like we all agree. Only, that our laws are slightly different. Even in the video, the guy's charges were dropped, his named was removed from whatever list that was also. So, his rights were eventually upheld. The same would happen here, if a cop (falsely) arrested someone in the same circumstances, maybe a lawsuit too, but that's optional.
"It's not a crime to quote the Bible, Lancelot, and I know full well you know that. "
I never said it was a crime. I'm not even focused on the religious content of speech. (that may be someone else.)
My point was only that the concept of Free Speech is important to a free society.
RE: Why Freedom of speech is so important.
Message edited:
"My point was only that free speech is important to a free society."
Even if that free speech could result in serious harm to somebody who is simply minding their own business, harming nobody. It's a shitty example of the benefits of free speech.
As I've said from the start, a desirable world doesn't depend on who is able to litigate what. It depends on the decent behaviour of its citizens.
The world needs more good Samaritans, not pharisees.
RE: Why Freedom of speech is so important.
I was holding off responding to the most recent posts, because I was waiting until I had enough time to address several different points. In light of Em's most recent post, though, I would now like to address one particular comment by Lancelot, because I was going to make a point similar to Em's:
"In the U.S. (legally) there is no such thing as hate speech..."
Technically, it is true that hate speech in the U.S. is protected by the 1st Amendment, but not in all situations. It would not be protected speech and would be considered a crime in the following instances:
-If it constitutes a true threat
-If it is an incitement to imminent lawless action
-If it is discriminatory harassment
-If it is defamatory
-If it is "fighting words" (words intended to provoke a violent reaction)
Regarding the video, I initially watched it quickly, so maybe I misunderstood, but as I understood it, the charges were dropped, not because it was protected speech, but because there was no evidence that he said what he was accused of saying. That's where the false arrest came into play. Some quick research revealed that Scotland has a recently implemented hate crimes law that covers at least some types of hate speech, so it is possible that, if witnesses had testified to specific things he said, he could have justifiably been charged with a crime.
There is so much more to say about hate speech. It is not simply a matter of whether or not it should be illegal, as there are important nuances. Em and Craig have made many salient points, but I hope to expand on this discussion at a later time.
RE: Why Freedom of speech is so important.
I mentioned earlier about the 'illusion of freedom'. The reality is we don't truly have freedom of speech and our societies wouldn't function if we did.
Leaving aside legality for a moment, think about what we learn as children. Manners. Tact (my mother was big on that one). There's a reason we are taught not to comment about certain things to people. Words we don't say in public, etc.
Craig hits on an important point when he asks why we want the freedom to behave badly to eachother, taunt eachother about differences etc. part of it is that tribalism...like calls to like, beware of difference. But we now live in much larger, more diverse societies. The people in the next village aren't aliens to us because we see them every day.
There's a wealth of difference between having to say your great leader smells of roses or be sentenced to death, to legislating against a riot in the high street by having some rules about how we conduct ourselves for everyone's peace.
Many laws are ultimately about living together, because we have to, and as the planet gets more crowded, it's hard.
Almost every law that exists restricts freedom in some way, but without them, we would have a lot fewer free people.
It's shocking to decent people that we need a law against killing, or stealing. But we do. Because without those laws, the victims aren't free. It's the same with SOME aspects of speech.
We have more freedom than some places not because we have no law, but because we have laws that apply to ALL.
2021 Script Writer of the Year
lancellot
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RE: Why Freedom of speech is so important.
Now, I am getting confused. Banana, I agree with you. I said basically the same thing. Threats, call to violence, slander defaming and such.
It seems like we are saying the same things. I am not focused on religion, just the importance of free speech, and It appears that you agree with that.
I'm not say Free speech is absolute or perfect. And that seems to be what you are saying too.
We are on the same page.
RE: Why Freedom of speech is so important.
Message edited:
The title of this thread is:
Why freedom of speech is so important.
Lancellot is correct when he states that there is general agreement among us that freedom of speech is important. However, nothing he has said or in the contents of the video he posted answers, or even addresses, the issue of "why".
Furthermore, while stating that this right is so important, he has repeatedly refused to answer whether it is more important than the right of people not to be harassed and their right to live their lives free from vilification and fear of violence.
He states that he is not concerned with the religious aspect of the issue, and yet that is the entire basis of the video he chose to post. He could have chosen any example of people saying things that are not well received. So why this one, when he does not wish to discuss it?
I'd like to address some things that have not been covered adequately or at all:
1) The video is not an unbiased media report. It was produced by an organisation called The Christian Institute, and has, understandably, received rousing support from evangelical organisations.
2) There was widespread condemnation of the preacher's actions in social media at the time of the incident (2022) and prior to that, from people in the area he and his associates frequent. Here is an except from one media report before the incident covered in the video:
Two Baptist street preachers accused of espousing homophopia, harassment and bigotry have come under fire from members of the public after they defended their impromptu town centre sermons.
Dale McAlpine and Angus Cameron, who regularly address passers-by through a tannoy system that they set up in the Market Square have been the focus of an intense backlash on social media.
Christine Moorhouse, who lives in town, wrote: "I think most people hearing this awful language are very alarmed. Free speech is of course legal. Causing harassment, alarm or distress to others is not. They should be arrested."
This sentiment was echoed by Matt Baker, also from Keswick, who called for the duo to be banned adding that in his opinion they were "totally out of touch with the town."
Alison Lamont, owner of Relish in Keswick, complained that the pair were unwilling to keep their volume down when children were being home-schooled during the pandemic. She said they regularly stand on benches that people sit on and they empty Market Square at a time when traders are trying to recover their businesses after lockdown.
The pair defended their beliefs, claiming they bring hope to the town. Mr McAlpine said they do not hate anyone and that they are providing a chance for people to achieve eternal salvation.
Councillor Tony Lywood, county and town councillor for Keswick, said he had complained to police on a number of occasions. "There is no place for bigotry in the town and as Keswick's county councillor I will not stand for it," he said. He added that he felt sympathy for the Keswick Convention which is often tarred with the same brush and that if individuals wished to protest against the pair then they should do so, providing it is within the confines of the law.
Some of the commentators called on the authorities to act to stop the pair from preaching.
The Keswick Reminder, August 24, 2021
3) The street preacher defends his actions on the basis that he is quoting the Bible. I've reproduced numerous passages here showing what that book says about homosexuality. Those verses include demands for the death penalty and quite appalling defamatory descriptions. There are other passages I haven't quoted, but I challenge anyone to find a Biblical statement on the subject that is not likely to cause offence. Furthermore, it is impossible to know which exact verses were quoted, or what other actual comments were made. Why have the countless evangelical organisations approving this activity and the preacher himself not told us what these were? It really does matter. Those who have witnessed them certainly seem to have been alarmed by them.
4) How would you feel if people stood on a street as you passed by declaring that women were an abomination, immoral, perverted, shameful, detestable and deserving of death? Would these statements be acceptable if they were directed towards Jews? Atheists? Black Americans? Prison guards? Basketballers? If, as Lancellot has allowed, free speech laws DO NOT apply when they result in defamation, incitement and potential harm, then this example does not at all demonstrate what it attempts to.
2021 Script Writer of the Year
lancellot
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Rank: 85
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Rank: 17
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Script Rating
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Review Stars
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RE: Why Freedom of speech is so important.
Well, it seems that some people simply want to argue with me. That's their goal, and likely why they joined the thread. Fine. I'm wrong. I'm bad. They're right. They win.
I'm done. If people want to pretend, they don't know why Freedom of Speech is important (As they use it) just so they can disagree with me, then they can have at it without me. I'm not taking the bait. Good night.
And I thank those who participated in this thread, in good faith. I'm glad we could find common ground peacefully by communicating with each other.
RE: Why Freedom of speech is so important.
Message edited:
Terribly sorry if I've contravened your right to post whatever you like on these threads unopposed, Lancellot. But at least you can take heart in the fact I've proved your point - by exercising my right to free speech, as much as it irks you.
I'll leave the conversation with one final point, which I think Emma may have touched on briefly. It invariably seems to be the privileged and well-off that are insistent upon their right to free speech, so they can vilify whomever they like. Unlike their less well-off targets, they can afford lawyers who can prevent them suffering the same fate. Been fun, thanks.
RE: Why Freedom of speech is so important.
It is a shame that you've taken somebody asking pertinent questions having done research as some sort of hate upon you and the concept of freedom of speech, Lance.
Everybody here has posted in good faith. Not agreeing with your source material for reasons clearly and reasonably stated doesn't equate to thinking you are wrong or bad.
It seems you just don't really like being challenged. It's a great shame because, from my perspective, it was nice to see you post outside your own country, given that you have made it pretty clear where you stand on any of us commenting on anything you post regarding your own country. Which is pretty much why your last thread is reams of videos with no response.
I, for one, have enjoyed the opportunity to comment without being told how my view is not wanted/invalid because of where I live. At least we can't be criticised for our geographical location when the video is about an event that took place in Scotland.
I've actually got another example from my home soil pertaining to protesters at the King's coronation event I wanted to share and discuss since we are on this subject.
Happy to keep talking about this with those who don't flounce off at reasoned argument.
RE: Why Freedom of speech is so important.
Message edited:
I'd be most happy to discuss it with you, Emma. Not sure if you want to continue on this thread or start a new one.
As a colonial in a land where the subject of republicanism is brought up fairly frequently, I'm neither a monarchist nor a republican. If we were to ditch all ties to the monarchy, it wouldn't bother me greatly. On the other hand, I don't see any glaring need to sever what is now essentially a symbolic, rather than practical, connection.
My other half's mother is British, although she's lived here for 50 years (as has her daughter), and she is a staunch monarchist. She is also absurdly hostile to Harry and Meghan. My SO likes them, and I'm undecided who is to blame for all the angst.
Anyway, bring it on, I say!
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